Curse

Sol Deathgard · Apr 24, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by cce

When/where do free chests happen? I play often, but I've never seen one.

they are spread across NF. You can open them once per char then have to wait a set amount of time (unsure how long but I've heard a mth) before you can use them again.

Kaleban · Apr 24, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Deathgard

See the auction tab up top? That's what I use.

I hardly think its right or fair for a game developer to depend on a fansite to provide what most would consider a crucial in game service/need.

The fact that its been asked for since GW was released should be a clue, and by ANet making the economy skew more towards a player-player barter system will only accentuate that need.

blackbird71 · Apr 24, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I agree that this is often the case, but those people are more likely to ask a question and leave. The people who have time to stick around discussing things (like this update) are almost all serious players.

I think it depends. You have newer casual players who definetely fit your description, they come in, get their info, and leave. Then there's the longterm casual players, who after returning time and again to the forums for a few months, begin to understand and take adavantage of the resources here(sell forums, etc.) because it streamlines their overall play. After all this time spent around the forums, they start to become involved, and at least some will begin to take part when they happen to see a topic that directly impacts their gameplay, such as this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I think part of our disagreement here comes from our definition of "casual." To me, anyone who plays significantly more than an hour a day is not casual, and I think that if we polled everyone here, we'd find that the majority of us fit that category.

It's true that there can be some misunderstanding on this definition. Personally, I do consider myself a "casual gamer," not because I play an hour a day, but because I average something along those lines. I don't play every day. There was even a period of time when I hadn't logged in for over two months. I usually play on weekends, or occasionally a weekday when I don't have work. When I do play, it's typically for a three to four hour stretch at a time, as logging in for only an hour doesn't seem to accomplish much, it's not enough time to involve oneself in the game. But then it will usually be at least a few days before I log in again for such a period of time. I will occasionally log in for just a few minutes to check on something, to see who's on, etc. but otherwise that's about it, three to four hour sessions once or twice a week. And that estimate is a bit on the high end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I think you're still reading too much into her statement. I'd be glad to hear an official statement on this, but by very nature of the game's design, Obsidian armor has never been within reach of casual players. Period. And I don't think Gaile was implying that, or she would have mentioned FoW armor specifically.

I don't think I'm reading too much into it. Period. Either we have to agree to disagree on this one and stop there, or you'll have to explain to me how "coolest" does not include the best items in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

It was designed to appeal to both.

Then maybe I'm in the wrong game. I still specifically remember a tagline in an add, "A game for the casual player." I don't remember it saying "casual or hardcore," just casual. The problem is, that by their very nature, the two contradict and it makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to please both. When they do try to make a game for both groups, they invariably get problems just like this, changes and updates that pit one group against the other, and in the end, neither are happy with the product.

That's not to say that there isn't room for compromise, just that you have to be very, very careful how you do it. I actually had a thought on this, it may be slightly off topic, but it might help you see where I'm coming from. If the game were truly balanced for both casual and hardcore gamers, then I think that there should be no single end-game item which is completely out of reach for the casual gamer (i.e., FoW armor), rather, all items should be within the casual gamer's reach, even if some may require several months of effort. The balance would be in having many different types of these high-end items, enough that the casual gamer could never hope to obtain them all collectively. Yes, individually they would all be within his reach, but he would have to pick and choose which ones to work for. The hardcore gamer on the other hand, would have the ability to obtain most if not all of these high-end items, so that rather than having one item that serves as a badge of total superiority, it is displayed through the quantity of difficult to obtain items. Anyway, these are just my thoughts, do they make any sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

If you read early interviews with Jeff Strain and other members of the design team, they are specifically referring to playable content, not weapon or armor skins. The low level cap, cheap max armor, and limited skill bar mean that anyone who plays through the game at a normal place will be able to access high-end areas like FoW and UW without being disadvantaged. I have never seen a single interview state that FoW armor should be obtainable by casual players.

(boldface added for emphasis)

As far as I'm concerned, all true, right up until the point that Gaile made her post on page 10, it seems to indicate the opposite. But then, we still disagree on that, so take it for what it's worth. Personally, I agree with you that it was not in the original intent of the game for all this to be accessible to every player, it seems obvious just from the basic mechanics of the game. But by my understanding of Gaile's words, I notice a disparity between these mechanics and what we are being told. This is what bothers me, the feeling that Anet is not being straight with us and trying to pacify us with PR spin. Frankly I find it insulting. You may think that it all comes from my misunderstanding of Anet's claims, but if so, they should have been more clear. If I'm wrong, and Anet does issue a statement clarifying what was said, then I will gladly recant and apologize. However, if rather than clarify, they continue to make statements or take actions which directly contradict what they have said in the past, I will continue to stand on my points and make my complaints heard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I have absolute faith in Anet's intentions and motivations.
I do have serious doubts about their methods and implementations.

Then you are more trusting than I, and I admire you for it. I guess I've just been burned too often before and it has left me a bit cynical. I ask others to prove their intentions to me first by their actions. I'll agree that something is definetely wrong with their "methods and implementations," but it is this that casts my doubt on their intentions. Either their intentions are not what they claim, or they are not thinking things through. Either way, it's not much to encourage my continual investment in their product, is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The scaling update doesnt really benefit the casual player. My argument is that it doesnt affect them negatively or positively (at least we cannot tell yet).

I will readily admit(and already have in a number of posts) that while we can theorize as to the eventual impact these events have on the game, the true result will only be known with time. For the time being though, since speculation and analysis are all we have, I will continue to stand by my interpretation and predictions until proven otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The idea for the casual player, the non-farmer, to have access to the "coolest stuff" like rare weapons and expensive armor, without farming or intensive grinding is downright delusional.

These things were designed to be hard to get. Obsidian Armor requires 75000 gold + 120 ectos + 120 shards. Lets not factor in runes. How the hell is a casual player going to get that?

It's supposed to be the vanity armor, the prestige armor. Its optional. And because its optional, it falls outside the realm of "casual players".

Please address these points to Ms. Gray, at the very least, we are in need of a clarification of her original statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

If Anet really wants to help the casual players, they need to:

A) Make weapon and armor collectors easier to get with more desirable stats. They need to make the trophy drops they collect easier to get in a full 8 party situation, so it doesnt turn into a farming situation.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10147203

B) Make runes, weapon mods, insignias and inscriptions easier to get for collector equipment.

Agreed. I rarely ever used collector weapons when levelling because I could invariably find a drop which, while considered junk to most, still had better stats than a collector item. Of course now, with white, blue, and purple drops decreased, this is less likely, but at the same time with collectible items decreased, it's harder to get the collector's weapons too. As for collector armor, it was handy at times, but it would at least be nice if the armors from the first two campaigns could accept insignia, that would be a definite improvement.

Gosu · Apr 24, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Guys it' not really that bad you can still make money, though you will just have to grind for it.

When this happened, I went to the rare material trader and looked for items that cost quite a bit and were easy to farm the thing which came up for me was amber chunks.

By playing AB I have amassesd alot of faction, faction which I converted into amber I now have a total of 84 amber chunks, which I can sell to the mercant trader for like 8.4k.

Even though it's a grind and it sucks it's my way of making money nowadays.

Sir Kilgore · Apr 24, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

But by my understanding of Gaile's words, I notice a disparity between these mechanics and what we are being told. This is what bothers me, the feeling that Anet is not being straight with us and trying to pacify us with PR spin. Frankly I find it insulting.

This is the crux of the problem for me as well. For me it's kind of like being around someone who cheated on you. You may still find them attractive, but at the same time you feel betrayed by their actions and disgusted because of it.

Solo farmers were receiving 100% of the drops - because they caused 100% of the kills. People in parties of 8 were receiving 12.5% of the drops because (if they were equal contributors) they were 12.5% responsible for helping cause the kills. People in parties of 4 were receiving 25% of the loot because of the same reason. That makes sense. That is properly scaled looting. You get to loot based on the amount you accomplish or helped accomplish.

What doesn't make sense is to claim that you're trying to help a group of people by essentially making no changes for them. I've still seen AoE scatter in normal mode btw - but not as much.

Logically if you make changes in a system and one group is mostly unaffected while another is negatively affected, you have not "helped" the unaffected group. You have harmed the other group and to try to call it anything else is disingenuous at best.

I don't like people pissing on my leg and then trying to tell me it's raining.

TabascoSauce · Apr 24, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

I still specifically remember a tagline in an add, "A game for the casual player." I don't remember it saying "casual or hardcore," just casual. The problem is, that by their very nature, the two contradict and it makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to please both. When they do try to make a game for both groups, they invariably get problems just like this, changes and updates that pit one group against the other, and in the end, neither are happy with the product.

QFT to blackbird71. I have heard on these boards some dubious statements.

Is casual farming helped by the recent loot scaling? (or does it push players towards hardmode?)

Does hard mode encourage PUGs? (or does it further separate casual players)

Does UAS/UAX actually make players more competitive? (or is whatever you get without farming like a dog "reasonable content")

Are cookie cutter builds really required in PUGs? (are all these "I don't do that" people on this forum liars, and/or are really altruistic people who help newbies 24/7)

Are cookie cutter builds really required to complete the game? (wow I have to cap what skill in southern shiverpeaks?)

What is considered "reasonable content" for a casual player? (Lyra you are not the only person to use that statement so relax)

-----

All this culminates in, if ANet wants to bring in new players, with the above statements in mind, how can they make the game appealing? Are those players really "competitive" from the start? Example - without Nightfall, Necros are without any energy management, right? Oh yeah, except a 5 second timer on their primary attribute, yeaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

How can ANet make casual players or new players competitive without giving away half the game?

All I can say is that everything that happens that widens that gulf makes me recommend to people I know NOT to get the game. The mountain of work they would need to begin to catch up to be competitive and play PvP, or get into a PUG in PvE, let alone a "leet" PUG, is waaaaaaaay too much. 1000+ skills says it all.

So no, based on actions, ANet does not seem to have casual players on their radar.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

rohlfinator · Apr 24, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Either we have to agree to disagree on this one and stop there, or you'll have to explain to me how "coolest" does not include the best items in the game.

Okay, I'll give it my best shot...

If you read Gaile's original post in the topic, she is directly speaking about loot: green and gold weapons, as well as rare materials, scrolls, tomes, dyes, special event items. Never armor. In her later post, I believe that she chose to abbreviate that to "items" instead of having to recite the whole list again, assuming that readers would understand given the context of the discussion.

The other possibility is that she may have forgotten about the cost of FoW armor when she made the comment in question. At no point in the discussion was armor even mentioned until she made that comment, at which point it was torn apart by critics looking to nitpick any possible flaw with her thinking. Everyone makes mistakes, and it is well within the realm of possibility that armor may have slipped her mind during the heated debate, which had nothing to do with the price of armor in the first place.

Regardless, I think it's absurd to take a single comment so literally when, as you mentioned, it contradicts dozens of previous statements by the game designers themselves. This discussion can't really go anywhere until we have official clarification on Gaile's comment, but unfortunately a few posters chose to show a complete lack of respect towards Gaile and the community.

Quote:

Then maybe I'm in the wrong game. I still specifically remember a tagline in an add, "A game for the casual player." I don't remember it saying "casual or hardcore," just casual. The problem is, that by their very nature, the two contradict and it makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to please both. When they do try to make a game for both groups, they invariably get problems just like this, changes and updates that pit one group against the other, and in the end, neither are happy with the product.

First of all, if you base your entire view of a game based on a single ad, I expect you're going to be disappointed with an awful lot of games.

Secondly, Jeff and Gaile have mentioned in numerous interviews that the game was designed to be easy for casual players to get into with enough depth to keep hardcore players interested. If you missed that point after nearly two years of playing the game, I hardly think ArenaNet can be blamed.

Finally, how can you say that a single item being off-limits to casual players makes the game unfriendly to casual players? There are literally hundreds of different weapons in the game, as well as dozens of armor choices. To be upset because you can't obtain one of those, which was never promised to you in the first place, is completely nonsensical. The ratio of accessible to non-accessible items for casual players is virtually unprecedented in Guild Wars. You will be hard-pressed to find another MMO that gives so many casual players maximum stats on their weapons and armor, much less prestige designs.

In summary, enjoy the 99% of the game that you can play, and don't worry so much about the 1% that you can't.

reetkever · Apr 24, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Okay, I'll give it my best shot...

If you read Gaile's original post in the topic, she is directly speaking about loot: green and gold weapons, as well as rare materials, scrolls, tomes, dyes, special event items. Never armor. In her later post, I believe that she chose to abbreviate that to "items" instead of having to recite the whole list again, assuming that readers would understand given the context of the discussion.

The other possibility is that she may have forgotten about the cost of FoW armor when she made the comment in question. At no point in the discussion was armor even mentioned until she made that comment, at which point it was torn apart by critics looking to nitpick any possible flaw with her thinking. Everyone makes mistakes, and it is well within the realm of possibility that armor may have slipped her mind during the heated debate, which had nothing to do with the price of armor in the first place.

Regardless, I think it's absurd to take a single comment so literally when, as you mentioned, it contradicts dozens of previous statements by the game designers themselves. This discussion can't really go anywhere until we have official clarification on Gaile's comment, but unfortunately a few posters chose to show a complete lack of respect towards Gaile and the community.

First of all, if you base your entire view of a game based on a single ad, I expect you're going to be disappointed with an awful lot of games.

Secondly, Jeff and Gaile have mentioned in numerous interviews that the game was designed to be easy for casual players to get into with enough depth to keep hardcore players interested. If you missed that point after nearly two years of playing the game, I hardly think ArenaNet can be blamed.

Finally, how can you say that a single item being off-limits to casual players makes the game unfriendly to casual players? There are literally hundreds of different weapons in the game, as well as dozens of armor choices. To be upset because you can't obtain one of those, which was never promised to you in the first place, is completely nonsensical. The ratio of accessible to non-accessible items for casual players is virtually unprecedented in Guild Wars. You will be hard-pressed to find another MMO that gives so many casual players maximum stats on their weapons and armor, much less prestige designs.

In summary, enjoy the 99% of the game that you can play, and don't worry so much about the 1% that you can't.

`

FoW armor isn't the only 'coolest' thing in the game.

Stuff like Elemental Swords, Colossal Scimitars etc. Do you really think people will throw down the prices just because some poor people can't afford them? Weapon prices will stay the same no matter what, as there will always be buyers as well.

Arenanet is NOT keeping the hardcore players interested at this moment. Sure, there is hard mode, but after 2 weeks that gets old. And then? Arenanet already destroyed the other things to do. And what isn't destroyed yet is just made so boring/troublesome that nobody wants to do it anymore.

I'm not a casual player, I already got 1 set of FoW armor and I'm not lacking cash, but I DO have a half-empty guild of casual players who just quit the game cause of it's endless nerfs.

How would casual gamers be able to afford the 'coolest stuff', when they can't even afford to buy skills and basic armor/weapons? (unless collectors, but farming for certain collectibles isn't exactly easy anymore either. Especially if you need monsters that only excist in 1 part of the game, or in very small numbers.)

Most Casual Players only had Troll Farming/Vermin Farming if they wanted to buy skills/armor, and they only farmed for the whites/blues/pure cash drops.

Now that has been taken away. What's left is the tradeable stuff. I don't know any casual gamer that wants to spend his 2 hours gaming on trying to sell 1 item. That is, if he even obtains that 1 item.

Kaleban · Apr 24, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Secondly, Jeff and Gaile have mentioned in numerous interviews that the game was designed to be easy for casual players to get into with enough depth to keep hardcore players interested. If you missed that point after nearly two years of playing the game, I hardly think ArenaNet can be blamed.

In summary, enjoy the 99% of the game that you can play, and don't worry so much about the 1% that you can't.

From what I've gleaned from the interviews, it was intended that PvE would be an "introduction" to the game, with the hardcore players moving into meta-gaming and high end PvP.

I hardly think "depth" as it was intended involves monumental amounts of grinding, which is exactly what happens when you take FoW armor into account as well as GOLD items like crystalline swords, Colossal Scimitars, Elemental Swords, etc.

And your last comment is a pretty slippery slope. At what point should players be satisfied/not satisifed with the game content available to them? Shouldn't all players have a reasonable chance of acquisition?

And besides, the point is moot when it comes to accessing things like FoW armor, because as you have said yourself, these items provide no better stats than the cheaper versions, so how would it serve ANet and the community's best interest to keep these items OUT of the hands of the vast majority of players? Again, the image of the poor plough donkey with the giant carrot dangling just out of reach comes to mind.

You can say the players don't need them because of the equivalency of stats, I say the players should have them because of it. It makes no sense in a "game" to exclude a huge portion of your playerbase from any content without very good reason. In many MMOs, the high end PvP world is dominated by items/armor that are statistically better than what the majority can access due to the difficulty in acquiring items and the extreme level grind.

That problem is cancelled out in GW because the "coolest" items in the game are the same numbers wise as any other max item available to any player. Since the perception that high end golds, Vabbi and FoW armor are the "coolest" items, then every player should have access to them due to them not giving any playing advantage, either in PvE or PvP.

Gaile Gray has said as much, yet ANet's actions are not in agreement. That's called PR spin, or it may be that Anet is forcing Ms. Gray as part of her contract to say these things to maintain interest in GW1 while they slowly shift interest to GW2. I don't know. I hope for Gaile's sake that that's not the case, because that's a crappy place to have to be. But I don't know what's worse:

ANet intentionally changing things to get people to buy the expansion and sequel, and lieing to their players to maintain interest or

ANet being that naive and uninformed about how game economies work and honestly thinking these changes benefit anyone, ESPECIALLY the casual gamer.

lyra_song · Apr 24, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

If you read Gaile's original post in the topic, she is directly speaking about loot: green and gold weapons, as well as rare materials, scrolls, tomes, dyes, special event items. Never armor. In her later post, I believe that she chose to abbreviate that to "items" instead of having to recite the whole list again, assuming that readers would understand given the context of the discussion.

The other possibility is that she may have forgotten about the cost of FoW armor when she made the comment in question. At no point in the discussion was armor even mentioned until she made that comment, at which point it was torn apart by critics looking to nitpick any possible flaw with her thinking. Everyone makes mistakes, and it is well within the realm of possibility that armor may have slipped her mind during the heated debate, which had nothing to do with the price of armor in the first place.

Regardless, I think it's absurd to take a single comment so literally when, as you mentioned, it contradicts dozens of previous statements by the game designers themselves. This discussion can't really go anywhere until we have official clarification on Gaile's comment, but unfortunately a few posters chose to show a complete lack of respect towards Gaile and the community.

Regardless of armor or weapons, some things will be out of reach of the casual player because of the game's design.

Crystalline Swords. These are ugly pieces of crap. Yet they command incredibly high prices. Why? Because they are rare. Your average player, heck, even high end farmers will never see a gold crystalline. You can farm purple crystallines, but a GOOD crystalline is only going to be found at the Hall of Heroes chest.

-------------
However GW is already great since even though theres this divide between those with money and those who dont, it doesnt really matter in the end.

Its all just vanity. Theres no advantage. Theres no instant kill, +10 agi swords. Theres no 3 slotted helms with +20% damage vs humans.

TabascoSauce · Apr 24, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

However GW is already great since even though theres this divide between those with money and those who dont, it doesnt really matter in the end.

Its all just vanity. Theres no advantage. Theres no instant kill, +10 agi swords. Theres no 3 slotted helms with +20% damage vs humans.

Ensign disagrees with you. He fully advocates getting Sup Death Runes for all your Necro characters and Heroes that will try (even tho gimped at) being a minion master at 3-6 plat each last I checked. The figure does vary, so I put in the range.

I do not know how many accounts and characters you have, but we're talking around 100+ plat for me to be competitive, just with this one thing.

He directly states that the Sup rune, with 1 more Death attribute point, pays for itself with better and longer-lived minions.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

lyra_song · Apr 24, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Ensign disagrees with you. He fully advocates getting Sup Death Runes for all your Necro characters and Heroes that will try (even tho gimped at) being a minion master at 3-6 plat each last I checked. The figure does vary, so I put in the range.

I do not know how many accounts and characters you have, but we're talking around 100+ plat for me to be competitive, just with this one thing.

He directly states that the Sup rune, with 1 more Death attribute point, pays for itself with better and longer-lived minions.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I dont see how Ensign advocating Superior Death Runes on a minion master necro means anything to what i said. You really love grasping at straws dont you?

1)NOT EVERY NECROMANCER IS GOING TO BE A MINION MASTER.

2) At the most you will need 3 superior death runes per account. 2 for heroes, since you can re-salvage repeatedly. 1 for your necro.

How does having Heros "pimped out" make you "competitive" in any sense in a PvE setting? Last i checked, PvE was not about competition...

Kaleban · Apr 24, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How does having Heros "pimped out" make you "competitive" in any sense in a PvE setting? Last i checked, PvE was not about competition...

DoA and Hard Mode? Seems like to survive there, you gotta be competitive.

Oh right, this is about Normal Casual Players. They should be able to get through the game without half the content that was put in, they don't NEED it to win, so we'll just make it unattainable without massive grind investment.

Oh and on top of that, lets screw with the economy, so that NO ONE can afford the cool stuff, then have our PR person spin it so that the entire community is in an uproar and nothing is solved through the din of arguing!

PERFECT smokescreen. We at ANet are so smert.

[edit] You know its funny this. What have the last few weekend events been that you can remember? Green Drop Weekend. Double LB/SS points. Festivals with events like "stand here and win/lose tickets." It seems like every special event ANet can come up with is nothing but an incentive to grind. Strange... maybe the ANet devs are running out of creative steam? Doesn't bode well for GW2.

You know, it seems like ANet is the perfect Mesmer build to counter fun in GW.

TabascoSauce · Apr 24, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I dont see how Ensign advocating Superior Death Runes on a minion master necro means anything to what i said. You really love grasping at straws dont you?

A straw this is not. You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

However GW is already great since even though theres this divide between those with money and those who dont, it doesnt really matter in the end. Its all just vanity. Theres no advantage.

Not true. Why else do players farm, a self-defined repetitive task to "grind" out additional money/items/etc?

You stated that money =/= advantage in game, because there are "cheaper" items that are equivalent in stats to so-called "uber" equipment.

I am stating that money == advantage in game. If you restrict your argument to armor and only armor, then I agree, the cheap armor is equivalent to expensive armor. As soon as runes for players and all your heroes, certain green weapons, candy canes and other holiday-themed items that remove DP, and all weapon mods come into play, and the 1100+ skills that go into the cookie-cutter builds specific to areas and bosses, then oh yeah money == advantage.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

lyra_song · Apr 24, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

DoA and Hard Mode? Seems like to survive there, you gotta be competitive.

Competitive vs who?
Monsters?
Or against other players to get into PUGs?

Please clarify.

Quote:

Oh right, this is about Normal Casual Players. They should be able to get through the game without half the content that was put in, they don't NEED it to win, so we'll just make it unattainable without massive grind investment.

Agree or Disagree.
PvP is BIG part of the game. But PvP is not for everyone.

Quote:

Oh and on top of that, lets screw with the economy, so that NO ONE can afford the cool stuff, then have our PR person spin it so that the entire community is in an uproar and nothing is solved through the din of arguing!

PERFECT smokescreen. We at ANet are so smert.

You know, it seems like ANet is the perfect Mesmer build to counter fun in GW.

LOL

I take Gaile's official words with a grain of salt. Things are subject to change and to re-interpretation.

I think the economy was screwed up to begin with, but i would agree that this isnt really helping.

blackbird71 · Apr 24, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Okay, I'll give it my best shot...

If you read Gaile's original post in the topic, she is directly speaking about loot: green and gold weapons, as well as rare materials, scrolls, tomes, dyes, special event items. Never armor. In her later post, I believe that she chose to abbreviate that to "items" instead of having to recite the whole list again, assuming that readers would understand given the context of the discussion.

The other possibility is that she may have forgotten about the cost of FoW armor when she made the comment in question. At no point in the discussion was armor even mentioned until she made that comment, at which point it was torn apart by critics looking to nitpick any possible flaw with her thinking. Everyone makes mistakes, and it is well within the realm of possibility that armor may have slipped her mind during the heated debate, which had nothing to do with the price of armor in the first place.

It may very well be that Gaile misspoke, and I'm sorry if I'm being a stickler on the use of the language, but i'm a firm believer in not using a word unless you really understand its meaning. The word "coolest" is an absolute. By definition, it is the most cool, the top, the pinnacle, the utmost. There is nothing "more cool" than "coolest." Period. If there is even one item that is considered to be "more cool" than "coolest," then "coolest" is no longer "coolest," it has been downgraded from paramount to tantamount at best. The one bit of leeway I can allow in this statement is the fact that the word "cool" is entirely subjective, and that we don't know what Gaile's personal definition of "cool" is. Maybe she doesn't like FoW armor. Maybe Gaile thinks that the coolest items in the game are devourer minipets or belt pouches. Who knows? However, even if this is the case, although not specifically stated, it would stand to reason that in wanting to make all the "coolest" items available to the majority of players, at the same time they would want the less cool items to be available as well. Yes it's possible that it slipped her mind or she made a mistake, but if that were the case, she should have corrected herself at the first opportunity, and the fact is that days later, she has yet to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Regardless, I think it's absurd to take a single comment so literally when, as you mentioned, it contradicts dozens of previous statements by the game designers themselves. This discussion can't really go anywhere until we have official clarification on Gaile's comment, but unfortunately a few posters chose to show a complete lack of respect towards Gaile and the community.

It may seem absurd to you, and maybe it is, but I see it as the best means I have to understanding and analyzing what was said.

I do find it regrettable that some resorted to personal insults instead of reasoning in a rational manner. However, while I condemn their actions, I also am bothered that Gaile chose to crumble under the words of the few and thereby ignore the inquiries of the many. It is by no means right or justifiable, but the fact of the matter is that in society people are prone to attack the messenger. I'm afraid that it is part and parcel of the job. If every PR rep left their post when the insults began, then President George W. Bush would have a new press secretary every two weeks. I don't believe that Gaile or anyone should be subject to attacks like that, but at the same time I believe that anyone in her position should expect it and prepare for it. At the very least, it is incentive for the PR reps to make sure that those they represent are giving them factual and accurate information to relay to the customers, and that the messages are phrased in such a way that the customers don't feel like something is being left out or ignored. Gaile has every right to be upset, but it shouldn't preclude her from performing her duties as a link between Anet and the customers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

First of all, if you base your entire view of a game based on a single ad, I expect you're going to be disappointed with an awful lot of games.

Well, I don't base my view on a "single" ad, or even multiple as the case may be. I was just providing it so you could hopefully understand some of my perspective. My perception was that the marketing campaign as a whole was directed toward the casual gamer, and it seems to me that if the game were designed for both, it would have said as much in their campaign. That seems to be the best way to draw in more customers. So, I made the assumption that if everything (i.e., ads, reviews, etc.) said the game was for the casual gamer, without mentioning other types of gamers, then it was probably not for the hardcore gamer. It was my assumption, maybe I was wrong, but hopefully you get the idea of why I believed it to be true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Secondly, Jeff and Gaile have mentioned in numerous interviews that the game was designed to be easy for casual players to get into with enough depth to keep hardcore players interested. If you missed that point after nearly two years of playing the game, I hardly think ArenaNet can be blamed.

Honestly, that's part of what bothers me. I believed I had been told that this game would cater to the casual gamer, and later it seems to have changed to encompass both. When a dev team changes their direction for a game, I get nervous, because it means the game is becoming something other than what I originally chose to pay for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Finally, how can you say that a single item being off-limits to casual players makes the game unfriendly to casual players? There are literally hundreds of different weapons in the game, as well as dozens of armor choices. To be upset because you can't obtain one of those, which was never promised to you in the first place, is completely nonsensical. The ratio of accessible to non-accessible items for casual players is virtually unprecedented in Guild Wars. You will be hard-pressed to find another MMO that gives so many casual players maximum stats on their weapons and armor, much less prestige designs.

Because if the game is truly designed for the casual player, why have any part of it that is off limits to the casual player? Isn't that contradictory in it's nature, regardless of how much other content there is? You say it was never promised, but I almost feel as if it had been, because I was told it was a game for people with my playstyle, shouldn't all the benefits of that game be accessible to such? I'm not asking for it to be handed to me on a platter, but after nearly two years of "casual" play, shouldn't I be able to be at least partway towards such a goal? Once again we enter the realm of what is "reasonable inference," but that's the way I feel. You're right, it would be hard to find another MMO with similar benefits for the casual player. That's why I chose this one instead of giving up on MMOs altogether. Now I'm beginning to change my mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

In summary, enjoy the 99% of the game that you can play, and don't worry so much about the 1% that you can't.

Because I didn't pay 99% of the cost, or 99% of the amout payed by those who do have access to these items. How would you like to pay full price for a luxury car and be missing a stereo? Or even just a speaker or two? Hey, you've got the engine, be happy! If Anet would care to refund myself and all other "casual" players for our time and investment equal to what we have spent in pursuit of items which we will never have because they keep making changes like this which move them further and further from our reach, then I will be satisfied with having only part of the content, provided that in the future they clearly announce all parts of the game which casual players should never consider attempting because Anet will be sure to move the benchmarks long before we ever get there.

Like I've said, I've been through it before. It was infuriating in SWG to spend over a year working towards a goal that was removed from the game before I could get there. It's just as infuriating now, and I don't plan to put up with it.

TabascoSauce · Apr 24, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

DoA and Hard Mode? Seems like to survive there, you gotta be competitive.

Oh right, this is about Normal Casual Players. They should be able to get through the game without half the content that was put in, they don't NEED it to win, so we'll just make it unattainable without massive grind investment.

Oh and on top of that, lets screw with the economy, so that NO ONE can afford the cool stuff, then have our PR person spin it so that the entire community is in an uproar and nothing is solved through the din of arguing!

You are in a better position than I am. I am still grinding to get (all) skills to get the winning cookie cutter build(s) for each zone. If you are thinking about ectos and such, then good for you! I'm not even there yet.

Just a few days ago, I went and capped earthshaker. The wiki said it was useful in the zone, so I went and got it. Amazingly enough, I had an easier time with it too.

Wiki FTW.

I'm just thinking about the people who have 3+ accounts. What the heck do they do?

Hehe, now those poor people that the only thing they have in their lives is this game need something to set them apart from the rest of us slobs with jobs, and that would be the super-expensive armor. I'm with Lyra, the 1.5K stuff is just as good so that's all my characters have.

What we disagree on is all the rest of the stuff that I gotta get to succeed in PvE and PvP. The Plat adds up for me just on skills and runes. Having those easier for me to get would help me progress faster in the game.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Alderin · Apr 24, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

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How would casual gamers be able to afford the 'coolest stuff', when they can't even afford to buy skills and basic armor/weapons? (unless collectors, but farming for certain collectibles isn't exactly easy anymore either. Especially if you need monsters that only excist in 1 part of the game, or in very small numbers.)

Most Casual Players only had Troll Farming/Vermin Farming if they wanted to buy skills/armor, and they only farmed for the whites/blues/pure cash drops.

Now that has been taken away. What's left is the tradeable stuff. I don't know any casual gamer that wants to spend his 2 hours gaming on trying to sell 1 item. That is, if he even obtains that 1 item.

This is very true, heck, I'm a hardcore gamer and spending more than 15 minutes in a town trying to sell or buy anything is just beyond boring. I'd rather be playing the game and having fun rather than standing there with the "WTS" and "WTB" just to try to make a very little amount of gold or get an item. It's more fun to play a game, not just stand around spamming but when a game starts to require you to stand around spamming rather than playing the game then the game looses a lot of it's appeal and thus a lot of it's players.

As you pointed out, a casual player isn't someone that will want to waste what time they have to play the game trying to sell an item or buy an item.

Kaleban · Apr 24, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Competitive vs who?
Monsters?
Or against other players to get into PUGs?

Please clarify.

Sorry, what I meant was that to remain competitive in PvE, such that when in a group you're not dragging down the rest of the team, you need to buy skills and equipment that will allow you to survive and thrive.

Now while obviously this doesn't mean FoW armor for all your characters, what I'm talking about is basic skills, a few good elites to round out your abilities, maxed weapons with mods, a few runes and don't forget for NF and Heroes inscriptions.

For example, playing Olias as an MM, to make it so he's able to beat out enemy necros with corpse exploitation, he needs the Bloodstained Insignia. Last I checked, that's about 9k, for something you can get for 1.5k in the other two campaigns.

Now multiply that by the number of PvE characters you have, assuming you want a competent hero mm ( and who doesn't) and you can see that between runes, gear and skills, the costs far outstrip the casual player.

And Tabasco, I completely agree with you, even in the skills and basic gear department. My previous post was meant in sarcasm, to indicate that the people arguing against me and others are not actually READING Gaile's initial post about what the changes are, and how they're supposed to affect the economy.

Never mind that it hasn't been explained how leaving prices static but decreasing gold drops (and white/blue merch fodder) will magically make buying power increase. Its like getting a pay cut then being told your buying power is still the same. Who would actually believe that? lol

Keithark · Apr 24, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

I had rather they kept gold/green items, rares, etc to themselves and left the gold pieces and whites alone....my God is it that hard to see that all they did is make it favorable for hard core farmers because they farm the harder areas with ecto and higher value loot and us poor people who only farm mino's and trolls because we don't want to devote our characters to only farming suffer because we no longer get the whites and the gold pieces to merch? Also, in the OP it says something about "make the game more enjoyable" geezzzz I just love to stand in town and see WTS XXXXXXX spammed a gazilion times. One of the questions in the original post hit the nail on the head "will this change not make casual gamers more likely to buy gold online" and the answer is a big fat YES (at least I know of one casual farmer who will be doing internet search for GW gold this weekend) Either leave it alone or make MORE items drop if they want to kill the sellers because if EVERYONE can farm gold easily then NOBODY will be buying it.